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Bud Brewster
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 Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Pow wrote: | The military wouldn't know for sure that the drug they would include in Ymir's food pouches would work, Bud, being that the Ymir is an extraterrestrial.
They are probably figuring some form of drug that would work on an earth animal of roughly the same size and weight. It's a calculated gamble, for sure. |
Respectfully, Mike, that logic is badly flawed. 
It wouldn't be a "calculated gamble — it would be a huge mistake to feed this creature something that "would work on an earth animal of roughly the same size and weight".
Here's why.
Their chief concern was to capture it alive — and a tranquilizer that would work on an elephant, for example, might well be a deadly poison to a Ymir! 
I think it highly unlikely that the American's would risk killing the Ymir with drugs that were designed for terrestrial animals. The physiologies of the two are drastically different.
Consider, for example, the fact the raw sulfur was the main food for the Ymir. But sulfur is toxic to Earth animals!
The Americans knew this, so they'd have to be pretty dumb not to realize that the Ymir was so radically different from terrestrial animals that they'd be much more likely to poison it with animal tranquilizers than to put it to sleep!
After all, the Ymir was from a planet which (the characters state) has an atmosphere poisonous to humans! After capturing the creature, the scientists learn that it's respiratory system had a complex series of filters which allowed it to breath the air on Venus.
That's why it was able to breath the air on Earth. It didn't need the filters here.
William Hopper's plan to stun the creature with an electric shock was based on data the Venus mission learned about the creature — but even that plan presented certain risks. Too much electricity would kill it!
However, with the Sicilian military literally "hot on the creature's heels" with flame throwers to kill it, the Americans had to take that risk.
And yet it was a risk based on known facts about the creature which the Venus mission learned — not just the desperate hope that a commercially sold animal tranquiler would work the same on an alien organism as it did on a horse!
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
Last edited by Bud Brewster on Wed Jan 11, 2023 6:52 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Pow
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Joined: 27 Sep 2014
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:28 am Post subject: |
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Bill Warren:
The design of the creature, though rather interesting for being slender, isn't as good as it should have been. The hands look large and clumsy, and the strange wattles on the face attract attention to themselves. Furthermore, Harryhausen's constant use of the same pose for his man-shaped creatures, which turns up in all his films using humanoid figures, becomes tiresome. The creatures lean slightly forward from the waist, thrusting out the head, pulling back the arms at the elbows.
In terms of the story, there are certain flaws in the creature's design. For one thing, it doesn't look very well suited to eat sulfur. You'd expect a sulfur eating creature to be low-slung, to have extremely powerful jaws, and huge digging claws. The Ymir lacks all of these, and the upright, almost human posture of the creature isn't in keeping with its stated habits.
Furthermore, the Ymir is apparently supposed to be a newborn creature in the first few scenes, and the incessant sounds it makes are indeed appropriate to an infant. But the creature looks precisely the same when tiny as huge. Harryhausen should have built a more infant-like model for the earlier scenes, and switched to the familiar Ymir with the third change. Budgetary considerations probably prevented this.
It's also not really believable that it could grow so much without ingesting anything other than a little sulfur, some air, and a little water.
The other major flaw with the handling of the Ymir is strictly in terms of story. It has no real personality, beyond being crabby. It also has no goals, other than the pursuit of sulfur while it's in Sicily.
But to have established a real personal relationship between the creature and its captors would have increased the pathos (which Harryhausen says he was striving for a little) and the excitement at the climax. It has little personality at the start and none at the end.
Opinion: I'm unsure as to exactly what goals that Bill Warren thought the Ymir should have? Going to grad school?
Look, its an alien life form stranded on a world it doesn't know at all. Its motivations are to survive and defend itself any way possible. Those are pretty darn good goals for the Ymir.
Earth is a totally different planet from its home on Venus. There's really no direction it could travel to in an attempt to seek a similar environment as its own world. I guess it could attempt to try to find a comfortable & familiar location in its journey. But we know it doesn't exist here.
Yes, Bud, attempting to drug Mr. Ymir is highly risky. What I'm saying is that I believe that the U.S. government and military would consider it acceptable. My scenario has the entire net capture backfire. Hence plan B.
If they do miscalculate the dosage, or even using any drug at all, the worst that happens is the Ymir dies. Yep, it's inhumane. However, the government can still take the Ymir to a secure location where scientists can study it. At least that's something.
They also know where they can capture more such creatures in the future and learn from this experience how better to keep it alive for study. Makes me feel for the all the Ymirs on Venus.
Last edited by Pow on Wed Aug 07, 2024 7:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bud Brewster
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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Bill Warren has everything completely backwards in his surprisingly critical remarks. Amazing . . . 
| Pow wrote: | Yes, Bud, attempting to drug Mr. Ymir is highly risky. What I'm saying is that I believe that the U.S. government and military would consider it acceptable.
If they do miscalculate the dosage, or even using any drug at all, the worst that happens is the Ymir dies. |
Please watch the movie again, Mike. Apparently it's been a while since you've seen it, so you've forgotten key scenes which totally contradict your statements above.
Here's why I say that.
The characters state several times that capturing the creature ALIVE was vitally important. Killing it was NOT an option. That's why they were so desperate to capture it before the Sicilians killed it!
After all, you can't learn how an alien creature's body works if it's dead.
After they did capture it and began to studying the LIVING creature , they explained some of the things they'd already learned, as well as how different the creature was from terrestrial creatures.
Mike, if they'd killed it and then cut it open, they'd just be starring at tissues and organs . . . with no idea what most of them were.
It would be like looking at a strange machine which no longer operated, and trying to figure out what it was for, how it worked, and what the component parts did.
If the component parts are totally unfamiliar and aren't doing anything, how can you learn what their supposed to be doing? 
Or consider the situation this way.
Imagine government agents pursuing an escaped alien who was highly intelligent. Would they consider just killing it and studying the dead body? Hell no!
They'd want to learn everything the LIVING alien could teach them. And basically this is the same situation. They can't get what they need for a dead creature.
In 20 Million Miles to Earth, the general (played by Thomas B. Henry) tells the Sicilian officials that finding out how the Ymir survived on Venus was vital, because it meant learning how man could survive on Venus. And he states they MUST go back because that there were important minerals that mankind needed there.
Remember, 17 men were on the spaceship when it landed on Venus. Only 1 survived. Nine of the 17 died from the disease that claimed the doctor who was pulled from the wreck.
No, Mike, you're ignoring the all-important, primary mission of the group who were hunting the Ymir; capture it ALIVE. Anything as risky as giving it potentially poisonous drugs would be completely inconsistent with what they were trying to accomplish!
Mike, if you don't have the DVD, please click on the link below (and do it soon, before the free WeTransfer link expires!), and you'll download the fine copy we used for the Saturday chat.
https://wetransfer.com/downloads/98583aa424006c554e3835014c4fdc9a20211215215416/d8cbca
Then go to the 30:00 mark and listen to the statement the general makes about why they desperately need the Ymir captured ALIVE!
In fact, he even states that no further expeditions to Venus can take place until an examination of the living creature reveals how it survives in the poisonous atmosphere!
So, your suggestion that they can just go back to Venus and get another Ymir if they kill this one completely ignores the most important plot point the story!
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
Last edited by Bud Brewster on Thu Jan 12, 2023 3:31 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Pow
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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I think you're missing my point, Bruce.
What I am putting forth is that the government and military can make disastrous decisions even though they "think" they are doing the right thing. And this would be an example.
You are coming at it from a position of logic and reasonable actions taken by a logical & reasonable government & military. However, we know historically that such institutions can make colossal miscalculations. Sometimes it is due to lack of information, other times incompetence or political agendas.
Aggressive, egotistical politicians and officers can come into play at critical moments in history and do the exact wrong thing.
If scientists proceeded to examine the deceased creatures body they still would be able to determine some things from its somewhat relatable humanoid biology. Not everything but some of how it functions.
I also believe that the government would not ban any further missions to Venus in the long run.
They'd critically examine everything they learned from this disastrous attempt from the spaceship to the spacesuits. They'd consider landing unmanned robots on the surface to collect data...and perhaps to retrieve another Ymir egg.
It may well be some years before they'd attempt such a mission, but it would happen.
The very fact that humans went to Venus in the first place shows the risks that the government was willing to take.
They had to have some intell about Venus in the first place and realize that sending a crew there without knowing everything they could about a planet was possibly placing these brave souls in harm's way. It was acceptable to the government and those astronauts.
The fact that humans were attempting to capture the Ymir alive was for their own purposes. Tragically it had nothing to do with humanities humanity at all.
Last edited by Pow on Wed Aug 07, 2024 7:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bud Brewster
Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Pow wrote: | I think you're missing my point, Bruce.
You are coming at it from a position of logic and reasonable actions taken by a logical & reasonable government & military.
However, we know historically that such institutions can make colossal miscalculations. |
This is an enjoyable debate, Mike! And I just figured out why we've not been able to agree. 
The problem is pretty simple.
As you stated above, you're talking about real life, based on the fact that the military and the government have done despicable things throughout history. No argument there, my friend!
However, I'm talking about this fine piece of science fiction and the admirable characters it presents. Obviously those are two different matters. And it's a big mistake to mix the two, because it robs us of the joy a well-crafted piece of fiction can provide.
So, I'm sure we can agree that there's nothing in the movie to suggest that those people are like the corrupt folks in our government and the military.
Mike, to appreciate any work of fiction we have to apply the Rules of Story Telling. And the most import rule is that whatever the story states is true is what you go by — not what's true in Real Life.
Obviously I talking about "Suspension of Disbelief".
For example, in this case — surprise! Venus isn't hot! 
It's also not devoid of life. Furthermore, astronauts can land there and walk around — but not for long, or they'll die, like eight of the seventeen-man crew did in the movie.
In this fictional world, both the military and the scientists are good guys who are smart and can follow orders.
For that reason, Mike, these intelligent scientists and soldiers would NOT feed a drug that works on terrestrial animals to an extra terrestrial sulfur-eating creature, because the drug might kill it.
That, of course, is exactly the opposite of what these intelligent, logical people are trying to do.
We know this is a "fact" in the story because the main characters explain it to the audience very clearly. And we're not supposed to doubt this just because we don't think "real people" would be as smart as the "movie people".
I see now that our disagreement stems from the fact that I've been pointing out that these fictional scientists, government people, and military men all state emphatically that their goal (and their orders — not to mention the plot of the movie) is to capture the creature alive.
You, however, have been describing what you believe would happen if this was an actual event. That said, I can't deny that if this was a actual event, things would probably go to hell in a hand basket, based on human nature and recorded history! 
However, as I said before, there is nothing in the movie to suggest that any of those people would blatantly disregard their orders by doing something as illogical and counterproductive as assuming that common animal tranquilizers would work on the Ymir.
Admittedly a tranquiler might have worked.
But the guys in the movie couldn't be sure how MUCH tranquilizer would put the Ymir to sleep . . . instead of killing it! Hell's bells, people overdoes on recreational drugs every day. And administering the correct dosage means the difference between life and death.
Therefore, since the fictional characters in this movie are intelligent men who don't do dumb things when the outcome is extremely important, I do not believe they'd risk killing the Ymir with an overdose, even if the drug wasn't toxic.
Their orders are simple — "Capture the creature alive, because we NEED him. Don't kill the Ymir by doing something risky and unproven."
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Captain Starlight
Solar Explorer
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| Stop motion is an amazing and unique art form. It requires the ability to imagine the precise movements needed to be made to an articulated model, so that a movie camera can capture each position and turn them into the illusion of motion when the film is projected. The average person is incapable of doing this. It requires a mental ability which Ray Harryhausen demonstrated to a degree few other people have ever possessed. |
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scotpens
Space Sector Commander
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2022 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Pow wrote: | Bill Warren:
. . . Furthermore, the Ymir is apparently supposed to be a newborn creature in the first few scenes, and the incessant sounds it makes are indeed appropriate to an infant. But the creature looks precisely the same when tiny as huge. |
The newborn of some animal species, particularly reptiles, don't look all that different from the adults. Alligator hatchlings, for example, look like miniature full-grown alligators, except that the head is proportionally a bit larger. |
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Bud Brewster
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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Apparently Bill is cutting Harryhausen no slack for having to use one animation model throughout the movie.
But Scot's comment about reptile young is entirely reasonable.
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Gord Green
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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I think there still can be a future for augmented stop motion animation. There has been a number of examples of experimental stop motion augmented by CGI to "smooth out" inter frame to create a more realistic, less "jerky" movement.
I'd love to see a good remake of this film using the original visual image of the Ymir by a new crop of SM/CGI aficianados!
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Bud Brewster
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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I'd enjoy seeing a version of 20 Million Miles to Earth with the animation "smoothed out", but frankly I don't think Ray's work needs to be enhanced in that manner.
However, I'm one of those animation fans who love the look of stop motion and who don't object to the strobing. It reminds us that the "motion" is an illusion, and the results are a miracle!
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
Last edited by Bud Brewster on Wed Jan 11, 2023 6:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bud Brewster
Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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I found this Harryhausen pre-production art on the Classic Horror Film Board.
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Bud Brewster
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord Green wrote: | I think there still can be a future for augmented stop motion animation.
I'd love to see a good remake of this film using the original visual image of the Ymir by a new crop of SM/CGI aficionados! |
You've presented an interesting idea, Gord.
The first reaction that most sci-fi fans might have to your comments is, "Why bother with traditional stop motion when skilled folks can use CGI to achieve superior results?"
But those of us who love stop motion (warts and all, so to speak) would point out several important differences between stop motion and CGI. Here's what I mean.
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~ The movements of a stop motion model are, of course, noticeably different from the real movements of objects — and this is a constant reminder that we're watching a miraculous art form.
~ The reason that Willis O'Brien's and Ray Harryhausen's stop motion shots are frequently short is a reminder that it took long hours of careful work to create each second of film.
~ This necessity to "dole out quick scenes" means the animator has to pack the maximum amount of info into a few seconds. That's why we hold these brief visual treats in such high regard. Their like tender bites of filet minion — not just fat cheeseburgers.
~ A stop motion model is a small work of sculpture, carefully designed and skillfully crafted. It encases a posable steel skeleton composed of precise components which fit together perfectly.
~ The movements of an animated model are not planned out in a computer — they're visualized by the animator, and they can executed by his hands alone!
~ The only aid the animator has when planning the movements of living creatures is his own body. He will often make himself "feel" the planned movement by acting it out.
~ The animator doesn't really know if his visualized movements have been successful achieved until the film is developed and projected. If he's not happy with it . . . he must film the shot again!
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A true fan of animation is constantly aware of all these elements while watching stop motion scenes.
Consider this in comparison to a CGI special effect. We can admire the visual look of the scene — but we're only marginally aware of the process involved and the work it required.
And all such CGI visual effects are the product of a collaborative effort by a group, so we can't attribute the results to a single gifted individual who labored for many hours, just to create brief moments on screen.
Gord, I think I too would like to see a project that made use of CGI to assist skilled animators in the production of actual stop motion scenes.
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Pow
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2023 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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The story was originally called "The Giant Cyclops," which later became 20 Million Miles to Earth.
Ray explains, "The creature went through many changes. It was very stout at one point; it had horns at one point and just one eye. Finally, I arrived at the lizard humanoid torso. I felt that you could get much more emotion out of a human type of a figure than an animal one."
~ Harryhausen: The Lost Movies |
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Pow
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2024 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| According to Youtube, the amount of time comprising all stop-motion animation scenes is fourteen minutes & eight seconds. |
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WadeVC
Astral Engineer
Joined: 06 Aug 2024
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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This is, for me, one of the very best Harryhausen films, and certainly one of my favorites.
I own it on both DVD and digital formats, and oddly enough, Pepe is a pain in both versions.
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