ALL SCI-FI Forum Index ALL SCI-FI
The place to “find your people”.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Why it makes no sense to terraform Mars
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ALL SCI-FI Forum Index -> SCIENCE now, add FICTION later
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Bud Brewster
Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)


Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 17017
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:29 pm    Post subject: Why it makes no sense to terraform Mars Reply with quote

______________________________

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Rolling Eyes

Mars is not worth colonizing, and it’s not worth terraforming. In other words, the true nature of Mars is one of the biggest disappointments in the history of mankind’s dreams to venture into space.

Basically, Mars sucks. Here’s why.

Great astronomers spent thousand of hours gazing at fuzzy images of Mars and imagining a canal system and a Martian civilization. It was all bogus.






Great writers like H.G. Wells and Ray Bradbury thrilled us with tales of Martain invaders and Martian adventures. The stories were all fantasies.





NASA has spent millions of hours and billions of dollars developing a space program they hoped will one day put men on Mars. It was a waste of money.





All those noble efforts have been admirable and inspiring — but the object of our devoted affection is just a fickle bitch, cold and lifeless, with a literal heart-of-stone. She’s completely incapable of returning our love.

Here’s what I mean.

The surface gravity on Mars is 38% of that on Earth. It is not known if this is enough to prevent the health problems associated with weightlessness. So . . . even if we could transform Mars into the second “Blue Marble” planet in the solar system, its lucky Martian citizens would have short life spans, because humans need gravity like Florida oranges need sunshine.

Ah, but it gets worse.

Because of the low gravity, Mars has low air pressure. If we could pump up the oxygen level on Mars and increase the air pressure, that would be just Jim Dandy — if we could increase the air pressure to 3.5 psi (as opposed to Earth 14 psi). That would allow the happy Martian colonist to walk around in simple mask supplying pure oxygen.

However, that mental image still doesn’t sound so rosy to me, because it’s comparable to mountain climbers who venture into pressures below 37 kPa (5.4 psi), also called the “death zone”, where an insufficient amount of bottled oxygen has often resulted in hypoxia with fatalities!

Oh my goodness. So far, life on Mars just doesn’t tempt me.

And are those the only reasons to think Mars is a poor excuse for prime real estate? No, my friends . . . it ain’t. As any good real estate agent will tell you, the three most important things in real estate are “location, location, location”.

And frankly, Mars is on the wrong side of the tracks.






Mars lacks a magnetosphere — which means it gets bombarded with solar radiation. It has more trouble holding onto its atmosphere than Las Vegas gamblers have when they try to keep money in their pockets!

So, pumping air into the anemic Martian atmosphere is just as dumb as bailing out a leaking boat! Earth makes its own air . . . and keeps it’s own air. Restoring the Martian magnetic poles or providing an artificial magnetosphere between the Sun and Mars is considered essential to restoring the Martian atmosphere and flowing liquid water.

And how we do that? Nobody has a clue. That ain’t good, right?

So, the bottom line is that Mars is a piss-poor place to visit . . . and nobody in their right mind would live there. Our plans to terraform Mars make about as much sense as an avid angler standing on the bank of a beautiful lake and wanting to row out to middle in a leaky boat to spend the rest of his life bailing it out so he doesn’t drown.






Folks, let’s just forget about Mars and build some nifty lunar colonies at the north and south poles. The list of reasons for why this makes sense are long and logical.



_________________
____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gord Green
Galactic Ambassador


Joined: 06 Oct 2014
Posts: 2940
Location: Buffalo, NY

PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In truth, teraforming ANY planet is not just hubris, but a bad, bad idea!

Unless the mass of Mars can be increased (Totaly unlikely!) any added gas to the atmosphere would be stripped away relatively quickly if not immediately upon forming!

There are, however, lava tubes and cave systems that could be sealed and provide atmosphere for a relatively large population. The same can be said for the Moon. Read Heinlien's THE MOON IS A HARSH MISSTRESS for a very realistic description of how a large Lunar colony could be constructed and maintained

Comments on Mars atmospheric terraforming from the web:

Mars's CO2 atmosphere has about 1% the pressure of the Earth's at sea level. It is estimated that there is sufficient CO2 ice in the regolith and the south polar cap to form a 30 to 60 kilopascals [kPa] (4.4 to 8.7 psi) atmosphere if it is released by planetary warming.

The reappearance of liquid water on the Martian surface would add to the warming effects and atmospheric density, but the lower gravity of Mars requires 2.6 times Earth's column airmass to obtain the optimum 100 kPa (15 psi) pressure at the surface

If Mars atmospheric pressure could rise above 19 kPa (2.8 psi) then a pressure suit would not be required. Visitors would only need to wear a mask that supplied 100% oxygen under positive pressure. A further increase to 24 kPa (3.5 psi) of atmospheric pressure would allow a simple mask supplying pure oxygen.

This might look similar to mountain climbers who venture into pressures below 37 kPa (5.4 psi), also called the death zone where an insufficient amount of bottled oxygen has often resulted in hypoxia with fatalities

Most of the oxygen in the Martian atmosphere is present as carbon dioxide (CO2), the main atmospheric component. Molecular oxygen (O2) only exists in trace amounts. Large amounts of elemental oxygen can be also found in metal oxides on the Martian surface, and in the soil, in the form of per-nitrates.

An analysis of soil samples taken by the Phoenix lander indicated the presence of perchlorate, which has been used to liberate oxygen in chemical oxygen generators. Electrolysis could be employed to separate water on Mars into oxygen and hydrogen if sufficient liquid water and electricity were available

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming_of_Mars

Pressure is equal to the force acting on an object divided by the area upon which it is acting. The pressure exerted by an air mass therefore depends on the mass of the air and on the area below the mass. For a given air column, if the density of the air increases then the pressure exerted on the surface by the air column also increases. That is, of course, because the higher density means that the air column has greater mass and exerts a greater force on the area below it.

http://nova.stanford.edu/projects/mod-x/id-pres.html

Artificially created gases could be 10,000 times more effective than carbon dioxide in warming up the Red Planet, the study determined. The gases that would work the best contain fluorine and carbon, and could be made from elements readily available on Mars, Marinova and her colleagues found. (They said the best gas for the job would be octafluoropropane, which is used on Earth for refrigeration and semiconductor fabrication.)

Adding 300 parts per million of the gas mixture into the Martian air would trigger a runaway greenhouse effect, according to the models. The polar ice sheets that would slowly evaporate. The newly released carbon dioxide would cause further warming and melting. Atmospheric pressure would rise.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/6908408/ns/technology_and_science-space/t/greenhouse-effect-could-make-mars-livable/

There’s two ways increase the air pressure: add a lot of gas so the atmosphere gets a lot heavier and presses down harder at the surface level, or adding a lot of mass to the planet so that it will have a stronger force of gravity on the air, pulling down harder on the gas.

I guess I forgot to mention that these aren’t really feasible. Mars’ atmosphere currently has a mass of 2.5 × 1013 kilograms. This is about 1% the mass of Mt Everest. Since the mass of the planet is probably harder to change than the mass of the atmosphere, we’d need to increase the mass of this atmosphere by about 200x in order to even get close to the air pressure in the Himayalas (which is way less than sea level). Good luck getting 2 Mt Everest’s worth of gas onto Mars.

http://quarksandcoffee.com/index.php/2015/07/13/can-we-make-an-artificial-atmosphere-on-mars/

_________________
There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
alltare
Quantum Engineer


Joined: 17 Jul 2015
Posts: 351

PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It strikes me that there is a third way to increase Mars' atmosphere, and I don't think it's any more far-fetched than increasing the planet's mass or adding a lot more gas to the system: Just reduce the planet's speed of rotation. Centripetal force would be reduced and the net effect would be about the same as increased gravity. Since Mars already has no magnetosphere, atmospheric losses due to solar wind would be no worse than what presently occurs. Days would be longer, but I don't think that's a serious problem. After all, Earth people living near the poles experience "days" and "nights" that are months long, and they manage to survive. To some extent, the increased apparent gravity would also answer Bud's concern about the health effects of reduced gravity.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bud Brewster
Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)


Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 17017
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

That's a fascinating concept, alltare! Very Happy

I'm not sure that reducing Mars' rotational speed would have the desired affect on the atmosphere — after all, if the Earth rotated at half its current speed, would everything on Earth really get significantly heavier?

However, assuming the idea is valid, could we really slow Mars' rotation by, for example, planting big rocket engines on the around the surface at the equator? Other questions which come to mind are:

* How many rockets would we need?

* How much thrust would they have to produce?

* How long would they have to fire?

* How much fuel would the need?

* And who would get the lucrative government contract to build these sexy beast? Very Happy

_________________
____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)


Last edited by Bud Brewster on Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:54 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gord Green
Galactic Ambassador


Joined: 06 Oct 2014
Posts: 2940
Location: Buffalo, NY

PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alltare, I think you greatly overestimate the role rotation plays in the force of gravity. During the time of the dinosaurs our rotation was twice as fast as it is today. The tidal effects of the Moon (the same ones that have locked the Moon into never showing the Earth it's backside) are also slowing the rotation of the Earth.

(The Moon is receding from the Earth as well, which to some extent now balances off this effect.)

Altering rotation would have no effect on the ability of Mars to retain atmosphere.

A better answer would be to create an artificial magnetosphere by making a huge electromagnet. Even if a colony size area was to be built an electromagnet as a shield would be more effective.

By the way, it appears that Mars rotation MAY have been greatly altered in the past. The great wound that Valles Marinaris is seems to have not been originally caused by the flow of water, but by a glancing blow from a huge asteroid.

_________________
There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child.


Last edited by Gord Green on Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
alltare
Quantum Engineer


Joined: 17 Jul 2015
Posts: 351

PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Orzel-w would say, "Or not". After I posted my previous comment about de-spinning Mars, I realized that there would be almost no change in its apparent gravity even if brought to zero RPM. The evidence is here on Earth. At the poles, where there is practically no centripetal force, everything weighs the same as it does at the equator where CF is greatest. The outward CF is such a tiny fraction of the gravitational inward force that it has no noticeable effect. I suppose the same would be true on Mars. Darn! I thought it was a nifty idea.

alltare wrote:
It strikes me that there is a third way to increase Mars' atmosphere, and I don't think it's any more far-fetched than increasing the planet's mass or adding a lot more gas to the system: Just reduce the planet's speed of rotation. Centripetal force would be reduced and the net effect would be about the same as increased gravity. Since Mars already has no magnetosphere, atmospheric losses due to solar wind would be no worse than what presently occurs. Days would be longer, but I don't think that's a serious problem. After all, Earth people living near the poles experience "days" and "nights" that are months long, and they manage to survive. To some extent, the increased apparent gravity would also answer Bud's concern about the health effects of reduced gravity.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pow
Galactic Ambassador


Joined: 27 Sep 2014
Posts: 3400
Location: New York

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All excellent & valid points gentlemen.

A friend of mine called to tell me how impressed he was with Elon Musk's spending billions to have humans journey to Mars.

$900,000,000 dollars to launch his car in to outer space!!!

My friend was surprised & disappointed that my response was what a waste of money on a ridiculous project.

Not the r&d in to building superior engine systems & technology for exploration of our solar system & beyond.

But the absurdity of colonizing Mars.

As Bill Maher said in one of his commentaries on his HBO show,let's forget about placing people on another planet(Mars)and let's start taking care of this magnificent planet we all inhabit.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gord Green
Galactic Ambassador


Joined: 06 Oct 2014
Posts: 2940
Location: Buffalo, NY

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I for one don't see the point of a real "colonizing" of Mars on a large scale. At least no more than of colonizing Antarctica.

I DO see the advantage of having a research station (Or a series of them.) that can be primarily self sufficient in supporting a few hundred individuals.

I think the same rationale would be applied to a Moon base. No large scale colony could exist on that radiation blasted atmosphere free dry rock. The drastically reduced gravity of the Moon would prohibit any long term residence as well. Short term stays at a research base and the closer return possibility would be more effective.

No . . . If Mankind is to really search for new homes it will have to be in the stars.

_________________
There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Bud Brewster
Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)


Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 17017
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gord Green wrote:
I think the same rationale would be applied to a Moon base. No large scale colony could exist on that radiation blasted atmosphere free dry rock. The drastically reduced gravity of the Moon would prohibit any long term residence as well. Short term stays at a research base and the closer return possibility would be more effective.

We agree about Mars. We disagree about the Moon. I have an idea that will physically increase the gravity on a moon base. I'll make a post about soon. It's simple and practical, and it solves the health problems caused by the low lunar gravity. Very Happy

More on this soon.

_________________
____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
orzel-w
Galactic Ambassador


Joined: 19 Sep 2014
Posts: 1877

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:
I have an idea that will physically increase the gravity on a moon base.

Careful you're not monkeying with tidal effects on Earth. Shocked
_________________
...or not...

WayneO
-----------
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gord Green
Galactic Ambassador


Joined: 06 Oct 2014
Posts: 2940
Location: Buffalo, NY

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A Lunar centrifuge may help with the gravity issue but is not a simple fix.

Still the regolith (The Lunar dust.) is devoid of any nitrates or other ingredients necessary to grow crops. Hydroponics may be an answer, but water is as rare on the Moon as oxygen in the atmosphere of the Moon. There may be some water ice in deep shaded craters, but not enough.

Lastly, the blasts of Solar radiation and Gamma and Cosmic rays would require vast amounts of shielding. Living deep in Lunar caverns or construction of an intense electro-magnetic field could be a solution, but large enough to support a self sustaing colony of any size.....no. The radiation on the Moon is even greater than that on Mars.

Mining stations and research posts supporting a couple hundred people with supplies from Earth on a regular basis....yes. Even allowing families to be able to be together would be difficult. But a self sustaining colony of thosands or millions of people....sadly...no.

_________________
There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Krel
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pow wrote:
As Bill Maher said in one of his commentaries on his HBO show, let's forget about placing people on another planet (Mars) and let's start taking care of this magnificent planet we all inhabit.

Any civilization that does not keep stretching, striving, exploring, pushing the boundaries, withers and dies.

Mankind has always had the urge, the drive, the need to see what is over the next hill, at the top of that mountain, on the other side of an ocean. It is in our DNA. To deny, that drive, is to stagnate, decay, and eventually die.

For it's health, it's survival, Humankind must explore. It must go to these places, not by proxy, but by actually setting foot there.

David.
Back to top
scotpens
Starship Captain


Joined: 19 Sep 2014
Posts: 871
Location: The Left Coast

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krel wrote:
Any civilization that does not keep stretching, striving, exploring, pushing the boundaries, withers and dies.

Mankind has always had the urge, the drive, the need to see what is over the next hill, at the top of that mountain, on the other side of an ocean. It is in our DNA. To deny that drive is to stagnate, decay, and eventually die.

For its health, its survival, humankind must explore. It must go to these places, not by proxy, but by actually setting foot there.

I agree wholeheartedly. Captain Kirk himself couldn't have said it better.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bud Brewster
Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)


Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 17017
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pow wrote:
As Bill Maher said in one of his commentaries on his HBO show,let's forget about placing people on another planet(Mars)and let's start taking care of this magnificent planet we all inhabit.

Yep, we heard this same misguided idea expressed in televised street interviews during the Apollo missions. People thought we should "solve our problems right here on Earth before going out into space."

And what are those problems? That's easy! Unemployment and poverty are two of them.

And what is the solution? That's easy, too! A vibrant space program that employs thousands of highly trained people. A healthy economy which is stimulated by hi-tech industries that earn billions of dollars producing the hardware needed for space exploration, and which also spend billions on the research and development of new technologies.

Those advancements turn into things like new building materials, new electronics components, new propulsion systems, and thousands of other things that benefit our daily lives!

Why do people think we're neglecting the problems here on Earth when we rise to the challenge of space exploration? We're actually solving them when we dedicate our efforts, our imaginations, and our resources to something which inspires national and racial pride! Very Happy

The common man may not appreciate all the lofty philosophical reasons for venturing out into space, but he should be made aware of the fact that a dynamic space program creates new jobs, employs thousands of people, puts money in everyone's pockets, and puts food on the table!

A space program is the ultimate way for the government to battle economic recessions. It doesn't just create unskilled jobs and the pay people to work, it creates a vast industrial complex whose goal is to improve the lives and well-being of mankind . . . while reaching for a future that spreads us across the stars! Cool

_________________
____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gord Green
Galactic Ambassador


Joined: 06 Oct 2014
Posts: 2940
Location: Buffalo, NY

PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Queen Isabella said "We should solve all these problems here in Spain before sending out any ships into the Western Ocean! "
_________________
There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ALL SCI-FI Forum Index -> SCIENCE now, add FICTION later All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group