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Krel
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 Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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The Bellerophon was a scientific exploration vehicle. They were sent to the Altair system for some reason. Maybe a ship passed through the system, or Earth sent out automated probes, and if a habitual planet is discovered an expedition is dispatched to survey the planet.
A survey of a planet would take months to years, so the expedition would be well equipped. Exploration, excavation and building machinery. Machinery (3D printers and fabricators) to make structures from local materials would save space on the ship, and allow the expedition to make what they need, also saving on space. Because they would be away from home base of an undetermined time, they would have materials for entertainment and amusement, sports equipment and a well stocked library. They would be able to grow their own food, and perhaps have 3D food printers for variety.
With Edward and Julia Morbius deciding to stay, it is likely that everything they could strip from the ship would be left on Altair IV. The reasoning would be that it would help the Morbius family to survive, and the followup mission would be able to retrieve anything they wanted to reclaim.
The fabrication machinery would allow Edward and Julia to build a house, if not THE house, have food, and Robby. Once Robby was constructed, he could build more advanced machines to make what was needed, or wanted.
David. |
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Bud Brewster
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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Damn, David . . . what an awesome post! 
It reads like a synopsis for a prequel! It builds on the fine ideas Gord suggested, and it somehow manages to make current technology seem like exactly what would have been part of the Bellerophon mission in the original film.
It perfectly fills in the gaps we’ve been curious about since 1956, legitimizing the somewhat vague info about the Bellerophon mission the movie gives us. Your description of the actions the Bellerophon crew took in response to Edward’s and Julia’s decision to stay is a masterful piece of characterization on the part of all the people involved.
The way you've presented the purpose of the mission makes perfect sense, and it speaks well of the United Planets and their plans for colonizing new worlds.
Your concepts and story ideas are a strong case for Hollywood to make a prequel for Forbidden Planet . . . instead of a horribly “modernized” remake that would be inferior to the original in every way.
I have to ask this.
Have you had these ideas for years and expressed them here in response to Gord’s post and the similar concepts it presented . . . or did you come up with all (or most) of those ideas from scratch today?
Either way, I’m impressed as hell!  .
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Gord Green
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Bud Brewster wrote: | | I do need a bit of clarification. What part of the Morbius home are suggesting is underground? |
Not "underground", but located in the excavated area between two rock ledges.
The roadway, veranda pool area and the entry are all on "ground level.....just a lower level than the dome shaped living area which is level with the upper horizontal rock which partially surrounds it.
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There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child. |
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Bud Brewster
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord Green wrote: | | The roadway, veranda pool area and the entry are all on "ground level.....just a lower level than the dome shaped living area which is level with the upper horizontal rock which partially surrounds it. |
Gord, you're still not being clear about this.
The house has two floors: the one at ground level and the one on top of it, commonly referred to as "the 2nd story". There is absolutely nothing below the ground.
Where the heck is the "excavated area" between two rock ledges!
WHAT two rock ledges?
There is no part of the Morbius house other than the ground floor and the second story with the bedrooms! An "excavated area" is, by definition, BELOW THE GROUND!
Please, Gord, tell us what the heck you talking about!
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Gord Green
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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Bud, look at the diagram-----
The upper level domed living quarters rests on the TOP of the two rock ledges (The one by the staircase leading to the upper level and the ledge containing the Krell tunnel.).The upper level is supported by the rock ledges (Shown in grey) and the support pylon (As indicated).
Imagine a circle using the arc of the staircase as a guide. That would represent the size and position of the upper level. There may also be the need for an internal load bearing support pylon to hold the dome in position and that is entirely consistant with the plans as depicted by the M-G-M art department.
An excavated level is NOT necessarily "below ground" if it is an elevated level to begin with. The excavation only brings it down to "ground level" Do you think the excavations at Hisserlick revealed that Troy was an underground city? Certainly NOT! The excavations only took it TO the original ground level.
When viewed from the back, as in the matte painting, these rock formations which serve as the foundations for the domed upper section do not show.
As is clearly shown, these rock spire features are prevalent throughout the area of the residence.
Front area
Rear area
You can clearly see the rock structure to the side of the entrance by the staircase that serves as the foundation for the upper level.
Here too the rock shelves that serve as the upper level foundation are clearly illustrated.
And here as well the rock surfaces are shown on the staircase side and the Morbius office side.
In the rear view matte picture the rock surfaces are obscured by the Altairian vegetation in the foreground, but this puts the whole thing together----The matte painting IS correct---from that point of view!
The top of the domed structure would contain air conditioning, house energy support (Possibly a fusion reactor or an interface with the Krellian energy source.) and any other support requirements the house may require.
_________________
There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child.
Last edited by Gord Green on Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Eadie
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:52 am Post subject: |
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Sorry but I haven't time to re-size. According to my science teacher what the mural represents is a portion of this:
A map of the total night sky with the path of the sun.
Mr. Green, do you suppose that the Earth probe which started this might look like this:
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Art Should Comfort the Disturbed and Disturb the Comfortable.
Last edited by Eadie on Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bud Brewster
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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My confusion, Gord, stems from several assumptions you make which I disagree with and one mistaken idea you have about the matte painting.
But there's quite a lot we DO agree on. So, here goes nothin'.
A close examination of the picture you posted earlier reveals that the dome does indeed rest atop the rock wall at the left side of the house in the matte painting.
But what neither of us realized is that it's not obscured by the vegetation — it's actually hidden beneath the continuation of the curved "overhang" on the left side, which surrounds about half of the house! Notice that the matte painting shows a gap between the curve left edge of the overhang and the vegetation next to it.
All these years, we've be thinking that the rock outcropping that was part of the house was a large cliff on the left side, with the house up against it, the way the original plan for the Morbius house was presented in the preproduction drawings.
However, the matte painting presents a different layout. Only a small rock outcropping was used in two visible places, one outside the front door and a continuation the same rock inside the house, with the stairs leading up to the bedrooms.
However, the graphic of the actual set shown above makes the same mistake we did. It shows the rock outcropping extending much further away from the house than it does if we assume the matte painting did NOT just leave out that rock feature altogether.
Here's my idea for how to resolve this conflict.
The exterior of the rock face which was used to form the wall we can see inside the house (the one with the stairs) is not visible outside the house because it's not as wide as the graphic artist assumed. It's actually hidden beneath the curved overhang at the base of the second story, shown on the left (which is darker in color because that side of the house is in shadow).
Prior to this, we both thought the vegetation might be blocking our view of a large rock outcropping next to the house. But it turns out that the rock face which forms the interior wall is neither very tall nor very wide.
The brighter jpeg below which you posted of the cropped matte painting also shows this "balcony like" overhang around the base of the dome, along with the gap between it and vegetation.
| Gord Green wrote: | | In the rear view matte picture the rock surfaces are obscured by the Altairian vegetation in the foreground, but this puts the whole thing together----The matte painting IS correct---from that point of view! |
Well, you're right that the matte painting turns out to be accurate concerning both the outside rock wall and the inside one — but not because either of them are obscured by vegetation.
The rock wall just outside the front door is not visible in the matte painting above, because that long rectangular protrusion (which extends out from the front door) hides it at the angle from which the house is viewed.
And yes, the matte paint does show the front of the house, and I'll prove that shortly. 
So, the rock wall we can see inside the house is actually there on the outside as well, but it's not visible because of the curved overhang that continues on around the house on the left. The exterior rock face is at least far enough back under that curved overhang to be hidden from view.
This means the rock wall itself is much smaller than we thought, and the house is not "built into the side of large cliff" as it was original planned, according to the preproduction drawings. The rock outcropping only goes up to the roof of the living room / dinning area, and it supports the dome on that side, as you stated.
I also agree with you concerning excavation of the inside wall with the stairs to the bedrooms. It was obviously modified to follow the curve of the dome above it. Interestingly enough, after reshaping the wall of rock to create the curve, the surface was apparently given a "naturally rough" look, as if it had originally been curved.
I can easily imagine Edward and Julia ordering Robby to restore the natural texture of the curved rock face for aesthetic reasons! I love the idea that they did exactly what the MGM set designers did — they created replicas of the rock face's real texture, just because it looked so cool that way! 
| Gord Green wrote: | | The upper level domed living quarters rests on the TOP of the two rock ledges. |
Oops, here you lost me again. What TWO rock ledges are you referring to? There's only one rock outcropping outside the main entrance and a continuation of the same rock as the interior wall with the steps.
If that's what you meant by the "two rock ledges", I understand. And yes, the dome does rest atop the curved rock, inside the house.
| Gord Green wrote: | | There may also be the need for an internal load bearing support pylon to hold the dome in position, and that is entirely consistent with the plans as depicted by the M-G-M art department. |
The inverted pyramid of metal beams above the small round pool is, in fact, the "internal load bearing support" you referred to.
In the blueprints it's called the Core, and it's positioned directly under the apex of the dome. But, of course, it only supports the ceiling in the living room and floor of the bedroom level above. It's an architectural fact that the dome itself would need no such support, because domes (and arches) are naturally supported by their curved structure.
| Gord Green wrote: | | An excavated level is NOT necessarily "below ground" if it is an elevated level to begin with. The excavation only brings it down to "ground level". |
A true statement, Gord . . . except that there's no reason to believe the land on which the Morbius house was built needed to be extensively "excavated" to level it off for the house. It probably was leveled off to some degree (a routine practice in home construction), but as far as we know the floor of the house was built at about "ground level" when the house was constructed.
After all, look how flat the land is, right out in the front yard!
In fact, the house seems to be just a tad bit higher than the flat area in front of it. And we can see that the land slopes upward in the region behind the house.
So, instead of the area needing to be excavated to bring it down to ground level, I'd be more inclined to think a portion of the land on the near side needed to be built up so that the entire building site was level with higher ground further back from the location of the house.
That's just a a guess, of course.
Remember, we're trying to reconcile the set with the matte painting, and when you look at how the landscape looks when viewed from the front door, it seems to be dead level rather than raised up a bit.
| Gord Green wrote: | | When viewed from the back, as in the matte painting, these rock formations which serve as the foundations for the domed upper section do not show. |
Let's clear up some confusion about which side of the house is the front and which is the back.
The two photos you posted earlier are correctly labeled the "front area" (where the men arrive in the jeep) and the "rear area", next to the swimming pool.
Front area
Rear area
However, you've repeatedly stated that the matte painting shows the "rear view" of the house. Apparently you didn't realize that in the matte painting, the pool is clearly visible behind the house.
Therefore, your statement that the matte painting is the rear of the house is incorrect. Even though the set does not include the long rectangular overhang which is meant to protect the front entrance from rain and sunlight, that IS the front of the house we see in the matte painting.
The actual length of the overhang, if it had been built as part of the set, would only have extended to cover the Sasha Bastoff fish sculpture in the center of the gravel-covered circle, not all the way out to the jeep road.
But since it would have been above the frame in shots like this one, they didn't bother to build it as part of the set.
If you're still convinced the matte painting shows the rear of the house, the Cinefantastique article states that the artist who created the matte painting was relieved when the special effects department decided not to mar his painting with an FX shot of the jeep's dust cloud approaching from the right side along the flat landscape, heading towards the overhang at the front entrance.
And one last bit of evidence to clarify this is the fact that Adams and Morbius gaze out at the graveyard while standing in back of the house, near the pool. Therefore the graveyard would be located about where the arrow is below. (Unfortunately, the matte painting of the graveyard is not entirely consistent with that area behind the house.)
(For the record: The two men are actually looking in the wrong direction. They're gazing off to the right of the pool area, whereas the graveyard is well off to the left of the pool.) 
Note to Krel: If Morbius truly "dug those graves with [his] own hands" (and a shovel Robby made for him), then the Bellerophon crew didn't leave as much excavating machinery with Edward and Julia as your fine prequel proposal described.
However, I prefer to think they actually did, and Morbius meant when he said he dug those graves "with my own hands" was that he put on his hard hat and got to work with the futuristic levitating backhoe they left for him!
And by gum, the subject of excavation in general brings up a very interesting point! Where did all that gorgeous vegetation come from? If it was already growing in that oasis-like area, did Morbius and Robby have to plow much of if under to make room for the house?
I suppose the Bellerphon crew brought along seeds from Earth and other worlds to plant on Altair 4, and they might have had miraculous chemicals which accelerated the growth rate. So, perhaps all the landscaping we see was planted after the Bellerophon arrived, and it was nurtured by Morbius, Altaira, and Robby for twenty years.
Then again, Forbidden Planet originally planned a scene in which Robby drove the starship crewmen through a lush jungle area on the way to the house, so perhaps all the plants are native to Altair 4.
Maybe there was quite a lot of excavating going on during that first year on Altair 4, with Farmer Edward and his overall-wearing missus tilling the soil and setting up the oasis we see in the movie.
Another great scene for the prequel!
Gord I never get tired of discovering new things about Forbidden Planet while engaging in spirited discussions like this one! Several times while writing this posts I realized I was wrong about something I thought we disagreed on, and I had to revise the post to get my facts straight and not embarrass myself!
But I owe this marvelous intellectual joy ride to you, sir! And I can hardly wait to do it again in the near future.
PS: I can't find a single website that identifies Metro Goldwyn Meyer as M-G-M. They all say MGM. That would seem to be the correct way to do it.
Just saying' . . .
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Gord Green
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, but the fact that the pool area is on the RIGHT proves that it is a view from the BACK of the house!
Look at the diagram again....the pool is on the RIGHT only when viewed from the BACK.
And it's also clear that THERE IS NO ENTRANCE shown in the matte painting!
And....There are TWO rock ledges ! What do you think the Krell tunnel is carved out of?
_________________
There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child.
Last edited by Gord Green on Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:36 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Bud Brewster
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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Ha-ha. Very funny. 
I shall take your reply to mean, "Bud, you are the King of Logic, the Master of Brilliant Debates, the Crown Prince of Deductive Reasoning, and the World's Greatest Authority On All Things Related to Forbidden Planet!
Would someone please call Bill Malone and break the bad news to him? I can't stand to hear a grown man cry . . .
Butch gave me Bill's phone number once. But when I tried it, I got a Pizza Hut! 
_________________
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Bud Brewster
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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Oh good lord, give it up, Gord! The jpeg you labeled wins the debate for me!
The pool is right outside the BACK door, so the matte painting shows the FRONT door. The viewing angle of this graphic is very different from the matte painting, so try not get too caught up and that left-and-right stuff.
In the graphic below, the pool is on the left. But if you turn it clockwise to match the viewing angle of the matte painting, the pool would be on the right. And STILL in the back!
| Gord wrote: | | Look at the diagram again....the pool is on the RIGHT only when viewed from the BACK. |
Forgive me, Gord, but your statement is clearly illogical. If the house is being viewed from the back, why isn't the pool positioned in front of the house in the painting? Besides, the pool isn't really just "on the right". It's in the upper right background, with the front entrance in the lower right foreground.
| Quote: | | And it's also clear that THERE IS NO ENTRANCE shown in the matte painting! |
The rectangular extension in the lower left corner is on the opposite side of the house from the pool. Swimming pools are not built in the front yard. They go in back, so that young ladies can skinny dip in private.
Since the swimming pool is behind the house (relative to the door the men came in when they first arrived), that means the door they came is the FRONT door.
The rock in the foreground is covering up the area below the awning-like roof, so we don't see any details below it.
Gord, it's impossible to make this matte painting agree with the actual set, for several reasons. For example, look at the windows. The windows we see from inside the house are certainly not a row of TRIANGLES!
And there is no square wing of the house that extends out to the right, towards the pool. That's total inaccurate compared to the set.
Both the front door (near the jeep road) and back door (near the pool) open out directly from the Core, the wheel-spoke circular area under the dome.
As for "Rock Ledge #2", the tunnel through the rock that led to the Krell lab does not just go into a small rock outcropping. It extends well inside a large cliff . . . . a cliff the house would have to be connected directly to.
The painting completely ignores this.
Since the computer graphic positions Moribus' study just to the right on the front door, that means it would be located at the place indicated by the arrow in the matte painting below. Notice that in the graphic and the matte painting, that puts it much closer to the front door than to the pool.
So, no matter how you cut it, Gord, the pool is in back of the house and the front door (along with Morbius' study) is directly opposite it . . . in the front.
As for there being a "rock ledge" next to Morbius' study, clearly there's NOT one in the matte painting . . . and the computer graphic doesn't show one either. What it does show is a small part of a large rocky mass of undetermined depth and width which has a tunnel through it.
Morbius and the crewmen walk straight out of Morbius's study, down a tunnel, and UP a few stairs to enter the Krell lab.
Everything we see in the jpegs above is inside a mountain-sized mass of solid rock, and it's all at ground level with the house!
Gord, your "rock ledge #2" has to be huge!
Any rock outcropping large enough to hold all that at ground level with the house would have be as large as the house itself AND directly adjoined to it, as shown in the computer graphic you labeled.
Gord . . . there is NO rock outcropping that large anywhere around house in the matte painting. The set is built as if the house IS against a large cliff, and the tunnel to the lab goes several hundred feet back into it.
]
I recommend you take this virtual tour again and get a clearer understanding of how the house is designed.
________ Forbidden Planet - Home of Dr Morbius
__________ 
_________________
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
Last edited by Bud Brewster on Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gord Green
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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Bud, Bud ,Bud.....
| Quote: | | Since the swimming pool is behind the house (relative to the door the men came in when they first arrived), that means the door they came is the FRONT door. |
The pool is on the SIDE of the house, not the back!!!
Your own picture clearly shows this. Calling the SIDE door a BACK door doesn't make it so! You can call a steer a bull, but that doesn't give him back his..."testicular abilities".
Sorry, we're just not going to agree.
Bottom line is.....Bud you are...and always be... my friend.
Even when you're wrong. LOL
_________________
There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child.
Last edited by Gord Green on Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:44 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Bud Brewster
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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Gord, my good friend and fellow intellectual, I'm confident that our well educated and highly amused members will see the humor behind your wacka-doodle statement and realize that I've risen to challenge of proving everything you've said (completely in jest, of course) completely wrong!
And in doing so, we teamed up to brilliantly uncovered a wealth of new information about Forbidden Planet that none of us were aware of before!
Gord, I couldn't have done it without you!
I'm always on your "side". I'll always have your "back". And . . . ummm . . . ummm . . . (Well, damn, I can't think of a clever use of the word "front", but you get the idea. )
_________________
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Krel
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Bud Brewster wrote: | I have to ask this.
Have you had these ideas for years and expressed them here in response to Gord’s post and the similar concepts it presented . . . or did you come up with all (or most) of those ideas from scratch today?
Either way, I’m impressed as hell! . |
I have to admit, that I thought of most of this as I read the posts. It was fun trying to figure out how a planetary survey would be accomplished when travel time was so long. The expedition would need to bring everything they would need, and would have to count on spending months or years on the survey. 3D printers and fabricators were unknown when the movie was made, but early SF did have similar, but not exact concepts, so it wouldn't be unusual for a long term expedition to have such devices.
I have wondered in the past how interstellar exploration was done in the FP universe where interstellar travel time takes months. I came to the conclusion that they would use robot probes. The probes would survey several star systems, then return to base with their data. The data would be evaluated, and if the systems were found interesting, the appropriate expeditions would be organized and dispatched.
I also think that the Bellerophon was a much larger spacecraft. C-57-D is a small scout ship. I say this, because they stated that the Bellerophon never sent any communications, which indicates to me that the Bellerophon had at least the ability to construct an interstellar radio. It also indicates that they didn't really expect to find any survivors. C-57-D's mission was to find out what happened to the expedition. C-57-D didn't seem to have much room for passengers, so scout ship.
Morbius had coordinates for landing. The landing area is an open section at the edge of the desert. A perfect area to land a large space craft. C-57-D was small enough to have landed across from the Morbius residence.
I believe that the Bellerophon was on the planet for months before the killings. I think that they never radioed Earth, because they discovered the ruins of the Krell lab entrance. All their energies were spent on excavating the lab entrance, figuring how to get into the lab, and they were too excited to radio Earth. There is a deleted scene where they discuss the possibility that the Bellerophon expedition made Earth's first contact with an alien race. So the Bellerophon would have been very excited at finding traces of an alien race.
David. |
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Bud Brewster
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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Bingo, David! Perfect timing!
I just finished watching the Sci-FiSteve video shown below and I was about to start a discussion concerning something fascinating Steve said at the beginning.
__ 3D Tour of the Forbidden Planet Saucer * Scifisteve
__________ 
Steve states that he based his ideas about the C-57-D's interior on their stated mission, which was to "search for survivors". He concluded from this that they hoped to find survivors and take them back to Earth!
I'd never thought of that! It's an intriguing idea.
Steve goes on to say that in view of this very reasonable expectation, the C-57-D would have to be equipped with things we've never discussed here before. To be capable of taking back a group of survivors, the ship would need to have enough food and water for the additional people besides the crew, as well as enough beds for them to sleep in!
Naturally the crew and the survivors could sleep in shifts, which is common on navel vessels. But this next requirement Steve mentions really impressed me!
There would have to be enough DC stations to accommodate ALL the people on board!
In the movie we only see one set of DC stations. But Steve includes a second set at a lower level in the ship to accommodate the survivors which the C-57-D hoped to find.
The important point here, of course, is that Commander Adams does in fact say they've come to "search for survivors". And when Morbius contacts him, he cheerfully states that they've come to rescue him.
What all this means it that we need to consider the C-57-D as being capable of transporting ALL the surviving Bellerophon crew back to earth! They can't just spend a year in space to reach Altair 4 and assume the entire party of scientists are dead!
Prior to seeing the Sci-FiSteve video, David, I would have completely accepted your assessment of the star ship's capabilities and limitations. But Steve's brilliant thinking on this matter completely reversed my views on the subject!
So, with that in mind, what new speculations can we make about this optimistic "rescue mission".
_________________
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
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orzel-w
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Krel wrote: | | ... figuring how to get into the lab... |
Now there's an interesting point of conjecture. The lab was secured with combination locks. Yet mere Earthlings somehow managed to figure out the combination(s). Some security!
_________________
...or not...
WayneO
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