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Is the Star Trek Economy a Welfare State?
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bulldogtrekker
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:13 pm    Post subject: Is the Star Trek Economy a Welfare State? Reply with quote

Is the Star Trek Economy a Welfare State?
By Quora Contributor



Yes and no.

When people critique a welfare state, what they're usually objecting to is the notion that people deserve certain basic resources from the state regardless of how much they contribute.

In the Star Trek universe, most basic resources on Earth are essentially unlimited and are therefore distributed free of any cost or trade. The Federation has enough clean sources of energy that it will never use it all up, and it can make food, water, clothing, etc. from energy. So people who don't work and just live off the free goods being provided aren't parasites because the resources they're using don't drain the state. They're not taking it from anyone; it's just free. This would sort of be like saying: Are American citizens who don't pay for the air they use parasites?

It's also clear that there is still an economy of sorts on Earth and certain things are not free, although they are also not available for monetary purchase. Some things have to be limited in nature, so they can't be available to everyone. This means that some kind of decision matrix must be applied regarding who gets them and who doesn't, so that whatever qualities the eventual recipient has that resulted in them being awarded the good is essentially what they "paid" for the good.

Let's get a bit more concrete. As an example, Sisko's father runs a restaurant. Seats at that restaurant have to be a finite resource (because they require labor), so they would not be "free" to everyone — the owners get to choose whom they give it to. (That brings up the interesting question of whether the Federation would have anti-discrimination laws, but I digress.) Let's say Sisko chooses to feed people in his neighborhood; choosing to live in that neighborhood is the "price" his customers pay for his food. Similarly, Picard's brother makes real wine; since that requires real grapes and, again, labor, that would also be a finite resource (as opposed to synthehol, which is free to everyone). From the context, it seems likely that Picard the elder distributes his bottles to friends and family; a relationship with him is therefore the "price" of a bottle. However, he would likely also distribute bottles in "reputation trade", so if you run an outstanding French restaurant, Picard would like choose to supply you with bottles. In return, as a courtesy to a great vintner, the Picards can likely get a table at every great restaurant in France whenever they like.

Art, live theater, music, etc. — anything involving human time, labor, or creativity would constitute limited resources. Presumably, if you wanted that kind of thing you could sign up to get it — if there was too much demand, there would have to be a waiting list.

So in the Star Trek universe there are motivations to make something of yourself you demonstrate that you are a worthwhile person, which would make others more inclined to befriend you (and thus give you the fruits of their labor) or jump you to the top of waiting lists for things like real wine, spots at a restaurant or a theater show, pieces of art, human-designed clothing, etc. It's clear that Starfleet personnel are very high status and thus are cosseted in most places and given first access to things of this type; this would be a huge motivation for joining Starfleet.

I also think that this would make a huge change in the culture of work and success as we think of it today. There would be much less labor required to keep society running, so expectations regarding working time and ethics would be very different. My guess is that an average workweek in the Star Trek universe would be around 10 hours a week. People would actually think that those who worked much more than that were strange and unhealthy and obsessive, similar to how we think of workaholics who work more than 60 hours in today's world. Note how often Picard gets ragged on for working too hard and not taking vacations, despite that he clearly spends plenty of time on leisure activities like music, reading classic fiction, and amateur archeology. O'Brien on DS9 also gets ragged on by his co-workers and his wife for working too much, despite that at least a third of the time when we see him, he's either at home with his family or in Quark's having a pint and playing darts.

When 10 hours a week is all that's expected of you, it would be a lot easier and more fun to get motivated to do things like be a bartender, cook, security guard, etc., especially since by doing so, you would demonstrate to your fellow members of society that you're not a lazy slug.

People would likely be even more motivated to learn to do creative, artistic, and musical things for themselves, to design their own clothes from the replicator, to excel in fields like technological advancement and medicine and so on because they wouldn't be able to buy it from others. So custom creative work would be available to more people than can afford it now, because a lot more people would have time to do it. Similarly, technical advancement would be faster because with all people having the time to be an amateur scientist if they're so inclined the Federation would have a huge brain pool to draw from.

This also, of course, gets into what exactly we consider working. Very few, if any, humans would choose to sit on a couch doing nothing all day, every day. Everyone would choose to do something, even if it's something that today we don't consider work.

LINK:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2015/02/12/is_the_star_trek_economy_a_welfare_state.html


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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of this sounds reasonable (most of it . . . ) but I have to wonder if basic human nature can really stand the kind of free ride this all suggests.

While reading the article I thought of how most retired people tend to get a job, even though they don't need to work anymore, because they just aren't happy sitting around doing nothing, and they don't have enough hobbies and creative outlets to keep them engaged every waking hour.

Bear in mind that these are mature people who have a very different view of life after living for decades, and they are no longer physically able to do the kinds of strenuous recreational activities young people can.

So, my concern is that many young people (especially teenagers) would not develop the morality and personal integrity they would if they weren't required to work for a living.

They also wouldn't establish the confidence and the sense of self-worth that personal success in a work environment creates. Teenagers struggle to establish their own perceived self-image -- sometimes through rebellion and acts of destruction. A society that gives them a chance to succeed by compelling them earn what they want and need is a much better environment for developing maturity than a society that hands them all their basic needs without demanding anything in return.

This need for a sense of purpose is just basic human nature. But this basic nature changes as people get older. Take me, for example. I was a shy and insecure kid in my youth (a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away . . . )

Now I'm a retired senior citizen, and I'm as lazy as a prize-winning hog at the State Fair, content to sit around all day making up stuff like this. But whenever I start thinking I should be doing something more productive, I just remind myself that I raised two kids, survived two marriages, endured four years in the Air Force, loaded baggage for Eastern Air Lines for sixteen years, taught school for eighteen years, wrote and published two novels, painted and drew a butt-load of artwork, created a message board that's been on the web (sporadically) for eight years, and designed the best T-shirt logo on the planet!

By the time I've thought through all these accomplishment, my urge to be more productive has passed and it's time for lunch. Very Happy

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ralfy
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the Star Trek universe, human beings are able to colonize and use resources from other planets. Given that, there is an abundance of resources. Also, many tasks, such as mining, manufacturing, etc., are almost fully automated.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the Star Trek universe offers boundless opportunities for people with intelligence, ambition, and personal drive. For them, it's a utopia.

But a large percentage of the population falls a bit short in one-or-more of those categories. Star Fleet tends to be populated by the people who have bags of those qualities, so when we watch the show we get the impression that things are just peachy all over.

Human nature being what it is -- yesterday, today, and tomorrow -- all those people who need either the carrot or the stick to get off their asses and do something besides suck up the unlimited resources just won't get any motivation to do so.

Don't get me wrong. I desperately wish mankind (as a whole) was up to the task of creating the bright and wonderful future we were told would happen back in the 1950s, but apparently we're just not up to the task.

But perhaps something between the rosy Star Trek utopia and the crappy nation-against-nation situation we've got now might work -- and be pretty terrific.

Roddenberry might not like it, but I think capitalism provides the carrot-and-stick that people need to get off the couch . . . and reach for the stars. Very Happy

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Pye-Rate
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Socialism gives us the community centered policies that are needed to survive as a species.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pye-Rate wrote:
Socialism gives us the community centered policies that are needed to survive as a species.

Tell that to the people that lived under the Nazi, Soviet and Red Chinese socialist regimes.

David.
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ralfy
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It should be noted that the three major crises that are currently affecting the world--economic crashes brought about by incredible levels of unregulated financial speculation, peak oil, and global warming together with environmental damage--are results of free market capitalism.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ralfy wrote:
It should be noted that the three major crises that are currently affecting the world--economic crashes brought about by incredible levels of unregulated financial speculation, peak oil, and global warming together with environmental damage--are results of free market capitalism.

Excellent point, sir!

However, would the cessation of free market capitalism and the initiation of socialism solve those problems -- without causing different problems in the process?

These problems are not really caused by capitalism, they're caused by human nature -- the tendency for people to break the rules so they can accomplish things like the acquisition of power or the accumulation of wealth.

Many people want a hell of lot more than the basic needs provided by a socialistic state, or even a utopia like the Star Trek universe. In a season 1 episode of TNG, Captain Picard made an asinine statement to a man from the 20th Century revived from suspended animation.

"The accumulation of wealth is a no long the driving force of our lives."

Yeah, right. Roddenberry really believe humanity would change that much someday.

Russia is socialistic . . . and it's lousy with corruption. As a result, their economy sucks worse than a hole in a spaceship's hull. They have bread lines over there like the ones we had during the depression.

You know, that period when capitalism wasn't working right.

My whole point has been that any social system must acknowledge and allow for basic human nature. If greed isn't rewarded legally, it will be practiced illegally. But if greed is regulated, it can benefit all those hard-working folks the greedy people hire to help them get rich.

That's painfully simplistic, I know, but it's the Occam's razor of economy. The combination of capitalism and human nature is like a raging bull -- dangerous and powerful. So, if you have a raging bull in your midst and you can't get rid of it . . . hook it to a plow.

Then reap the harvest when spring rolls around. Very Happy

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orzel-w
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:
These problems are not really caused by capitalism, they're caused by human nature -- the tendency for people to break the rules so they can accomplish things like the acquisition of power or the accumulation of wealth.

My whole point has been that any social system must acknowledge and allow for basic human nature. If greed isn't rewarded legally, it will be practiced illegally. But if greed is regulated, it can benefit all those hard-working folks the greedy people hire to help them get rich.

The greedy people also hire lobbyists to get the laws repealed that regulate their greed. And they own the media that helps them convince those willing to listen (approximately 50% of the population) that it's for their own benefit.

(Remember the movie Network? Maybe we should consider that science-fiction and add a thread for it.)

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Krel
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ralfy wrote:
together with environmental damage--are results of free market capitalism.

If you want to see the worst environmental damage and pollution, look at a socialist country. In some areas of China, the air is practically breathable.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

orzel-w wrote:
The greedy people also hire lobbyists to get the laws repealed that regulate their greed. And they own the media that helps them convince those willing to listen (approximately 50% of the population) that it's for their own benefit.

You, sir, are exactly right!

No doubt about, we must pass a law right way which prohibits all forms of greedy behavior. Then we can initiate a socialistic society, and our problems will be solved. Very Happy

Shame on me for thinking that capitalism was perfect and everybody follows the rules! Gosh, what was I thinking? Embarassed

On a less sarcastic note -- like I said, human nature. No system can eliminate it. We're just debating which system is the best compromise between anarchy and dictatorship -- which system rewards innovation, encourages creativity, values human freedom, protects individual expression, and discourages the basic human need most people have to vegetate like cumquats in backyard garden.

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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
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ralfy
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:
Excellent point, sir!

However, would the cessation of free market capitalism and the initiation of socialism solve those problems -- without causing different problems in the process?

These problems are not really caused by capitalism, they're caused by human nature -- the tendency for people to break the rules so they can accomplish things like the acquisition of power or the accumulation of wealth.

Many people want a hell of lot more than the basic needs provided by a socialistic state, or even a utopia like the Star Trek universe. In a season 1 episode of TNG, Captain Picard made an asinine statement to a man from the 20th Century revived from suspended animation.

"The accumulation of wealth is a no long the driving force of our lives."

Yeah, right. Roddenberry really believe humanity would change that much someday.

Russia is socialistic . . . and it's lousy with corruption. As a result, their economy sucks worse than a hole in a spaceship's hull. They have bread lines over there like the ones we had during the depression.

You know, that period when capitalism wasn't working right.

My whole point has been that any social system must acknowledge and allow for basic human nature. If greed isn't rewarded legally, it will be practiced illegally. But if greed is regulated, it can benefit all those hard-working folks the greedy people hire to help them get rich.

That's painfully simplistic, I know, but it's the Occam's razor of economy. The combination of capitalism and human nature is like a raging bull -- dangerous and powerful. So, if you have a raging bull in your midst and you can't get rid of it . . . hook it to a plow.

Then reap the harvest when spring rolls around. Very Happy

I don't think free market capitalism can be stopped by its participants. Instead, it will fall on its own weight:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/02/limits-to-growth-was-right-new-research-shows-were-nearing-collapse

I think they are not part of human nature but of physical limits of the planet. At least that's what I gather from the Star Trek universe: once human beings found themselves amidst an abundance of resources and automation, then the prospects for peace became greater.

About Russia, I think it's no longer socialist, but it is still experiencing many difficulties. The same goes for the U.S., which incredible levels of debt and a financial elite that essentially controls their economy, as well as extensive surveillance and prison systems used not only against foreigners but against their own people.

Interestingly enough, though, the economies that began to eclipse the U.S. and various EU members included those that had socialist or partially centralized economies, including Japan, China, the Asian tigers, and various members of BRIC and emerging markets.

In any event, it will not matter, as they are all part of a global economy that needs continuous economic growth in a biosphere that will not allow it.
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ralfy
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krel wrote:
If you want to see the worst environmental damage and pollution, look at a socialist country. In some areas of China, the air is practically breathable.

My understanding is that we are looking at pollution that was essentially outsourced together with manufacturing. By skirting environmental laws and providing cheap labor, developed countries get cheap goods.

That's why it's not surprising that this phenomenon spanned various countries across many decades. For example,


http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/26/a_nation_of_outlaws/?page=full
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ralfy
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with capitalism is that it actually goes against what one may describe as "human nature."

Human nature involves self-preservation, and secondarily comfort. That comfort consists of sufficient access to energy and material resources, such that there is actually such a thing as having enough.

We see this in the Star Trek universe, where there are hardly any humans who are so greedy that they seek that they seek more energy and material resources than they need or want.

In contrast, capitalism is driven primarily by money, which essentially consists of numbers in hard drives. The only goal is to come up with higher numbers, and all that for what is essentially credit. The person does not even need most of that money for personal spending.

And if there's anything that can be created easily in capitalism, it's money, which is only part of a larger credit market:

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/05/top-derivatives-expert-finally-gives-a-credible-estimate-of-the-size-of-the-global-derivatives-market.html
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ralfy wrote:
Human nature involves self-preservation, and secondarily comfort. That comfort consists of sufficient access to energy and material resources, such that there is actually such a thing as having enough.

We see this in the Star Trek universe, where there are hardly any humans who are so greedy that they seek more energy and material resources than they need or want.

We see lots of wonderful things in the Star Trek universe that we all wish could be true, like hyperdrive and a lack of greedy people.

Hyperdrive might become a reality someday. But a lack of greedy people is not in mankind's future.

That's part of human nature.

And yes, nobody "seeks more than they want", but some people want more than others. Some people want a hell of a lot -- and they should have the right to want it. The man who yearns to run a company shouldn't be forced to sweep the floors just because somebody else is happy with that job.

That's also part of human nature.

There is no perfect system. Any political organization that protects personal freedom and encourages personal accomplishments is going to be misused by certain members of society. The only way to prevent the existence of a wealthy elite is prevent anyone from getting wealthy.

That would mean no more Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Larry Page, and Sergey Brin (the founders of Google) -- no more miraculous success stories of gifted men and women who followed a dream and changed the world.

Thank God that's part of human nature.

You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater if you condemn free enterprise just because intelligent people don't always play fair.

People are never going to play fair in the real world, because the dreaded human nature I keep talking about is a two-edge sword. Powerful men elevate themselves to leadership positions -- and sometimes these men are good and sometimes they're Adolf Hitler.

You cannot create a political system that prevents the smart people from getting wealthy, and the wealthy people from running things -- because that would be a society which penalizes intelligence, initiative, and personal accomplishments.

I'm not condoning evils of our society, I'm just saying the best system we'll ever come up with will still have it's flaws. Ben Franklin nailed it when he said, "He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security."

A good system of government is like an effective medical treatment: it's better than being sick, but it always comes with a price. And there's no such thing as a medication that doesn't have unwanted side effects. Even aspirins give you ulcers.

As a society we should not want the government to provide our needs. We should want a government that protects our right and our ability to provide those needs for ourselves.

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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)


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