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Robert (Butch) Day Galactic Ambassador
Joined: 19 Sep 2014 Posts: 1437 Location: Arlington, WA USA
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:36 am Post subject: |
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Robby with Louie [from Silent Running (Universal 1972)] as seen at the end of the Daicon IV opening anime:
_________________ Common Sense ISN'T Common |
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Bud Brewster Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
Joined: 14 Dec 2013 Posts: 17136 Location: North Carolina
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Robert (Butch) Day Galactic Ambassador
Joined: 19 Sep 2014 Posts: 1437 Location: Arlington, WA USA
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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Regarding the mural in Dr. Morbius' study i was always bothered that it was so washed out and blurry. I contacted an astronomer at Mt. Palomar observatory and finally got an explanation. The picture is of the Milky Way looking towards the center of the galaxy and was taken at the Mt. Wilson observatory in 1938. She sent me this color replacement.
Also this might explain the difference of screen size comparisons:
Top: CinemaScope 55 - 2.55:1 [Forbidden Planet and 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea]
Standard CinemaScope - 2.35:1 [Most films of the 1950s, particulaly those from 20th Century-Fox]
Modern TV screen - 16:9 [equivalent to 1.78:1]
Ols analog TV screens - 4:3 [Equivalent to 1.33:1] _________________ Common Sense ISN'T Common |
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Bud Brewster Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
Joined: 14 Dec 2013 Posts: 17136 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:41 am Post subject: |
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Butch, you may have been misinformed.
The picture of the stars you posted doesn't look much like the one in Morbius' study, and it certainly doesn't seem less "washed out and blurry" than the one in the movie.
I also learned that the 200" telescope at the Mt. Palomar observatory first went into operation in 1948 —
Palomar Observatory - Wikipedia wrote: | The 200-inch Hale Telescope was first proposed in 1928 and has been operational since 1948. |
— so the photo used for Morbius' study couldn't have been taken in 1938
However, the caption in the lower right-hand corner of the blueprints on page 11 (image #10 in the Cinefantastigue article you and I posted) does in fact say that it was an 11' X 14' transparency of a "star field" (no specifics given) which was lit from behind, and that it was taken by the 200" telescope at Mt. Palomar.
So, we agree on the original source of the photo used in Morbius' study, but I'm not certain it's what the astronomer you talked to said it was. _________________ ____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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orzel-w Galactic Ambassador
Joined: 19 Sep 2014 Posts: 1876
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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Robert (Butch) Day wrote: | I contacted an astronomer at Mt. Palomar observatory.... The picture...was taken at the Mt. Wilson observatory in 1938. |
Bud Brewster wrote: | ...the 200" telescope at the Mt. Palomar observatory first went into operation in 1948 — so the photo used for Morbius' study couldn't have been taken in 1938 |
But Mt. Wilson was operating in 1938.
Bud Brewster wrote: | However, the caption in the lower right-hand corner of the blueprints on page 11...does in fact say...that it was taken by the 200" telescope at Mt. Palomar. |
So, which is it; Mt. Wilson or Mt. Palomar? _________________ ...or not...
WayneO
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Bud Brewster Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
Joined: 14 Dec 2013 Posts: 17136 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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orzel-w wrote: | So, which is it; Mt. Wilson or Mt. Palomar? |
I have a lot of faith in the Cinefantastique article's accuracy, so I'm putting my money on what the article says.
Besides, the picture Butch says he got from the astronomer who thinks the photo in Morbius' study was taken at the Mt. Wilson observatory doesn't really look like the one we see in the movie. And for the record, it's NOT "washed out and blurry".
But the one Butch posted, ironically enough, IS!
Sorry, Butch. _________________ ____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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orzel-w Galactic Ambassador
Joined: 19 Sep 2014 Posts: 1876
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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But what does Mt. Palomar not starting up until 1948 have to do with challenging the claim of a photo made at Mt. Wilson? Go back and read what Butch said the Palomar astronomer told him. _________________ ...or not...
WayneO
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Bud Brewster Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
Joined: 14 Dec 2013 Posts: 17136 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | I contacted an astronomer at Mt. Palomar observatory and finally got an explanation. The picture is of the Milky Way looking towards the center of the galaxy and was taken at the Mt. Wilson observatory in 1938. She sent me this color replacement. |
~ She told him the wall mural was a picture of the Milky Way looking towards the center of the galaxy.
The Cinefantastique article just calls it a "star field", which doesn't collaborate the astronomer's claim.
~ She said it was taken at the Mt. Wilson observatory.
The Cinefantastique article says it was taken at the Mt. Palomar observatory's 200" telescope.
Wikipedia says this about the Mt. Wilson observatory.
Quote: | The observatory contains two historically important telescopes: the 100-inch (2.5 m) Hooker telescope, which was the largest aperture telescope in the world from its completion in 1917 to 1949, and the 60-inch telescope which was the largest operational telescope in the world when it was completed in 1908. |
No mention of a 200 inch telescope at that location, which blatantly contradicts two statements in the Cinefantastique article.
~ And Butch states that the astronomer at Mt. Palomar sent "sent me this color replacement", implying that the photo he posted is a better version of the one used in Forbidden Plant.
Sadly it is NOT a better version, nor is it even the same photograph. And the alleged source is from the wrong observatory!
I also question the suggestion that a professional astronomer would provide such a piss-poor jpeg. The lady astronomer certainly seems to have low standards
I mean . . . damn, that thing sucks!
I Googled "observatory photo of the center of the Milky Way Galaxy" and got this. Notice that it doesn't resemble the mural in Morbius' study either.
It's too bad the scene in Forbidden Planet didn't look like this!
_________________ ____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Gord Green Galactic Ambassador
Joined: 06 Oct 2014 Posts: 2947 Location: Buffalo, NY
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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On the old board there was a post with the actual picture that was used....and no Butch, that was NOT the one used. Unfortunatly, my copy is on my old defunct hard drive.
These are a couple of the better stills from the film :
And you can clearly see that there is little resemblance to the one you showed above.
I ran the data through my RB-83 and he confirmed it!
_________________ There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child. |
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Gord Green Galactic Ambassador
Joined: 06 Oct 2014 Posts: 2947 Location: Buffalo, NY
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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ALTHOUGH......This section of Butch's picture after color enhancement and sharpening does bear some resemblance to the one in Morbius's study.
_________________ There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child. |
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Bud Brewster Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
Joined: 14 Dec 2013 Posts: 17136 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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Despite the fact that I think the Cinefantastique article is extremely well researched, I must admit that the mural behind Morbius looks more like a painting than an actual photo of a star field.
After all, this movie had scads of artists at their disposal, and all they needed for the mural was something that looked sufficiently "celestial".
And consider the fact that in all the jpegs we've posted of Morbius' study, the mural hasn't shown a bit of color.
However, I found this picture at a site called Palomar Skies.
Here's what it says about it.
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The image was taken using the 200-inch Hale Telescope at prime focus and it is remarkable that this was the world's best in 1961 (when it was copyrighted by Caltech). Of course pictures like this one were shot on glass photographic plates or, eventually, color film.
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The mural in Morbius' study seems too colorless to be a photo from Mt. Palomar, and the black areas are conspicuously lacking in the stars. In photos like the one above there are always plenty of stars that are actually between the camera and the celestial object featured in the photo.
In the mural, most of the stars are grouped in the light areas. And these areas have a stylized pattern, sort of like a woman's hair in a breeze.
Look carefully at the painted background in this shot of the C-57-D. Unlike the mural, there are plenty of stars in the black areas —
— but notice how the wispy nebulae in the lower left have those wavy brushstrokes similar to the patterns in the alleged "photo of the Milky Way".
Gentlemen, compare the picture I created of Morbius in his study with an actual photo of the Milky Way —
— to the mural we see in the movie, with all that artistic stylization, not mention the way most of the stars are grouped inside the bright area . . . whereas the nebula in the actual picture above is the darker area!
_________________ ____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Gord Green Galactic Ambassador
Joined: 06 Oct 2014 Posts: 2947 Location: Buffalo, NY
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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Bud, in the 50's almost ALL star pictures were done only in black & white. Color reproductions didn't really come in until the later 60's, although there were some colorized versions earlier. _________________ There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child. |
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Bud Brewster Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
Joined: 14 Dec 2013 Posts: 17136 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:54 am Post subject: |
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Well, okay, the lack of color wasn't my best argument, but the more I look at the mural after doing the fake picture with Morbius in front of an actual photo of the Milky Way, the more it looks like a rather stylized (and unrealistic) painting.
For example, we know the space backgrounds for the C-57-D shots were paintings, and therefore the cropped section below is by the artists who would have done the mural . . . . if it was a painting, too.
Here's two other examples. Notice the nebulae and stars at the bottom of this shot. Compare them to the nebula in the mural.
Notice the similarities between the two painting styles in each of the examples:
~ The large black areas with no stars
~ The large, bright stars outside the nebula
~ The concentration of small stars inside the nebula
~ The wavy shapes of the nebula gas itself
What do you think, Gord? Is it real or is it Memorex? _________________ ____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
Last edited by Bud Brewster on Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:36 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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orzel-w Galactic Ambassador
Joined: 19 Sep 2014 Posts: 1876
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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You guys are reading a lot into what Butch posted. I think you're mixing your own analysis into it and coming up with claims he and the astronomer didn't make. I'll break it down when I return from Starbux. _________________ ...or not...
WayneO
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Bud Brewster Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
Joined: 14 Dec 2013 Posts: 17136 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure what you think we're misunderstanding, Wayne. What is there to "break down"?
Quote: | Regarding the mural in Dr. Morbius' study . . .
The picture is of the Milky Way . . . and [it] was taken at the Mt. Wilson observatory in 1938. |
Admittedly I now think Cinefantastique might be mistaken about it being a "star field" photo taken at Mt. Palomar. I'm more inclined to think it's a painting by the FP artists. _________________ ____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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