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The War of the Worlds (1953)
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johnnybear
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 1953 version is still the best despite the Martians not being inside Tripod machines!!!
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

It's unfortunate that Pal couldn't show us eye-popping FX with Martian tripods, but it just wasn't possible in 1953.

The decision to portray the Martian war machines as hovering "manta-ray-shaped" vehicles was a good one in view of the fact that in 1953 it would have been impossible to create moving tripods in a convincing manner.

Even stop motion by Harryhausen and O'Brien would have been prohibitively expensive. And there's no denying that the slow, majestic motions of the manta ray ships was very impressive.

The 2005 version of War of the Worlds gave us excellent Martian tripods, despite all the rest of it's flaws. Rolling Eyes

Wouldn't it be fun to travel back to 1953 and use 21st century technology to do the tripods with CGI using one of these two designs. I love 'em both. Very Happy






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orzel-w
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:
The decision to portray the Martian war machines as hovering "manta-ray-shaped" vehicles was a good one in view of the fact that in 1953 it would have been impossible to create moving tripods in a convincing manner.

Even stop motion by Harryhausen and O'Brien would have been prohibitively expensive.

You are perchance forgetting what Pal had accomplished with his Puppetoons. They were intentionally cartoonish, but the results are still impressive.
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johnnybear
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those great pulsing and throbbing noises have been with us since 53 and turned up later on in the Invaders premiere episode, Beachhead!
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

orzel-w wrote:
You are perchance forgetting what Pal had accomplished with his Puppetoons. They were intentionally cartoonish, but the results are still impressive.

They were impressive "puppets in cartoon-like short films". Are you suggesting that these cartoonish special effects would be good enough for a serious science fiction movie? Confused

In interviews with Ray Harryhausen (who actually did most of Pal's Puppetoon animation) he said that the method Pal had him use was considerably less realistic than the kind he ended up perfecting. He describes it as "very limited".

Perhaps you should refresh your fond childhood memories. Very Happy


_________________ Alladin - Pal's Pupetoons


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orzel-w
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm even more impressed now than I was as a child. As I said before, they were intentionally cartoonish. The technology is there.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Let be get this straight. You think the Martian tripods could be done realistically with the Puppetoon style animation?

Wayne, a lot of people think Harryhausen's animation looks "fake". It's not that they're stupid, it's just that Ray has often said himself that his animation is not supposed to look like reality, it's supposed to look like a stylized version of reality, which (according to him) is consistent with fantasy and science fiction . . . not reality.

Now, if someone likes "stylized reality" (like me), stop motion is great. But like I said, the average person is less impressed.

I'm sure that with sufficient time and money, Ray Harryhausen and Willis O'Brien could have done wonderful work creating the tripods. But matting them into a technicolor film would have been difficult. Harryhausen didn't take on the challenge color matting until 1958 when he made The 7th Voyage of Sinbad.

Harryhausen had to develop a new process for combining color film elements, which he named Dynamation.

And I hate to say it, but some of the matte shots in War of the Worlds (which was made five years earlier than Sinbad) are a bit less than seamless. For example, in this famous scene it's painfully obvious that three separate film elements were combined —



— but not very smoothly, I'm afraid.



I noticed it the very first time I saw the movie in 1965 when a local church rented a 16mm print for the youth group to watch. And it's certainly a lot more obvious on a good DVD, much less on Blu-ray.

Don't get me wrong, I love this movie, but between the less-than-perfect matte shots and those Howdy Dowdy wires that hold up the manta-ray machines, the FX sometimes require a forgiving attitude. Very Happy

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orzel-w
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, you're right, Bud (although I'm confused now about which point you're arguing.)

I'll e-mail George and tell him to halt production.

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

orzel-w wrote:
Yeah, you're right, Bud (although I'm confused now about which point you're arguing.)

I'll e-mail George and tell him to halt production.

I was just saying that . . . ummm . . .

Wait, could you repeat the question, please? Embarassed

Oh, right! Now I remember. Very Happy

Mr. Pal was right to change the tripods to floating manta-ray machines, because there was no way to do the FX needed for tripods in 1953 that would have been impressive to the general public. I realize, of course, that staunch Harryhausen fans would have loved animated tripods for the same reason they wish the squid in 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea had been animated.

But animation is not always the best answer to an FX problem. Sometimes it's absolutely perfect. No one loves the spectacular FX in It Came from Beneath the Sea more than I do!






But the squid in 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea was done the most effective way possible at that time, and it created a magnificent scene. It's a fantastic moment in the film, with no stop motion . . . and of course, no CGI.

Impressive. Very Happy






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orzel-w
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're overestimating the task, Bud. The screen time the tripods would need to be shown walking would be but a fraction of the time we see them altogether. The walking could be covered by a single "hero" shot of three machines one time, then suggested in subsequent shots by close-ups and partial framing, minimizing the need for full animation. Much of the time they could be shown standing still, with only their heat rays spewing fire or whatever other movable appurtenances they have swiveling or bending.

Think of the dinosaurs in the first Jurassic Park. The CGI dinos were employed only part of the time. The rest were partial mechanical puppets or a man in a rubber suit (or just rubber legs).

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Perhaps you're right, and I like your money saving suggestions. Very Happy

I should point out, I guess, that in addition to the cost, I stated that matting them into the shots with Technicolor would be difficult in 1953, based on the trouble War of the Worlds had with a few shots (like the example I provided the picture of).

I'm not trying to invent objections, I promise, but it occurs to me that if the animated tripods looked really good, we might feel disappointed if the number of shots was too meager. Confused

I guess the best case scenario would be to hire Ray Harryhausen, Willis O'Brien, and Pete Peterson for the job, and really take full advantage of their skills by showing scenes like a trio of tripods striding through a city, blasting away at fleeing crowds in the streets.

We could even show a few really impressive shots of the Martians themselves, too!

I created this picture today, but it's not very spectacular and it's nowhere near what I have in mind for a stop motion scene! Very Happy






But I really think Ray, Willis, and Pete were eager for an assignment like War of the Worlds in 1953, and their services would probably cost much less than I originally suggested.

After all, Ray worked his butt off in 1953 to make the magnificent Beast from 20,000 Fathoms, which had a total budget of $200,000. According to Wikipedia.

"It earned $2.25 million at the North American box office during its first year of release and ended up grossing more than $5 million."

I'm curious as to whether Pal ever considered using stop motion by his old friend Ray. If so, I wonder why he decided against it. After all, Ray made impressive preparations for a War of the Worlds motion picture, including fantastic sketches and test footage of a Martian emerging from a cylinder!

So, I guess I'm reversing my position and agreeing with Wayne and the folks who think animated tripods would be a good idea! Very Happy

For the record, however, I really dislike Ray's design for the tripods. I mean, damn — flying saucers with legs?

Uh . . . no. (Earth vs the Walking Saucers? Laughing











_ Ray Harryhausen War of The Worlds test footage

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orzel-w
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:
For the record, however, I really dislike Ray's design for the tripods. I mean, damn — flying saucers with legs?

From the way Ray drew his tripods it appears that he was intending to have part of them them spinning à la Earth vs. the Flying Saucers. That would suggest some sort of gyroscopic effect. It might be a screen explanation for how the 'pods could remain upright while one leg was off the ground.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

The idea of stabilizing gyros is very good.

But that faux saucer design sucks! They look ridiculous. And looks matter a great deal to me when it comes to robots, rocket ships, flying saucers, ray guns, space stations, spacesuits, etc. etc.

I guess part of the reason I dislike it so much is that (a) it's bad version of Ray's own magnificent saucers —






— and (b) putting legs on a bad version of his sauces is slightly worse than putting legs on the real thing! Sad
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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bah! Ray's original test footage looked great!



Very convincing!

(Ok, actually this was the Disney version from MARS AND BEYOND)

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orzel-w
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gord Green wrote:
(Ok, actually this was the Disney version from MARS AND BEYOND)

I love that Disney version! The Martians look really badass, and the working of the legs, with the hub bobbing up and down is classic.

The legs appear to be continually rotating from the hub to bring one leg around to the front for each step.

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